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Possible Story Ideas
03-03-2010, 06:42 AM
Post: #101
RE: Possible Story Ideas
(03-03-2010 06:25 AM)cloudwolf Wrote:  
(03-03-2010 06:18 AM)Neoteny Wrote:  Remember also that Zion and Carlyne used a specific code to prevent Halborn from reaching the Matrix - this could obviously be researched, adapted, and applied to the multitudes of Oligarchs as well, given time and data.

Also remember Helian and Tesarova came back using enhanced methods of accessing The Matrix. If it came down to a coding battle, I'm fairly sure the civilisation capable of downloading their minds into synthetic android bodies would win everytime.

I don't agree. Just because they have their abilities and codes (which, again, have been largely cancelled by Cryptos's efforts) doesn't mean that others couldn't out-code them, especially when said others have more knowledge of and experience in the Matrix. I guess it all boils down to the argument of "how advanced are they really?" I mean, if they were so great, they could've created the BIP themselves, couldn't they? Obviously the Machines and the Programs have something on them.

Moreover, I don't see wiping out the Oligarchs as necessary. What I do see as necessary is fleshing them out. The reason they were so goddamn boring is that for months at a time, we would just see them somewhere attacking worthless things or wandering around without any explanation. Make them get involved more (somewhat like Helian and Tessarova). Integrate them into the story rather than destroy them. Or, if they must be destroyed, have it be the result of a conflict in the Real between the Machines and the Oligarchs. But put them to use and get people interested in them. Don't just have them fade in and out.

In any case, I still don't see motivation for the BIP to destroy the Oligarchs, so I really think that if they're to be removed, it could be done via:

a) Merovingian/Machine collaboration (including research of Beirn's cheat code powers in conjunciton with Cryptos's code which could lead to pushing the Oligarchs out)
b) Machines harnessing some of Sati's programming in conjunction with the programs they have to push the Oligarchs out/render them powerless.
c) Machine/Oligarch war (which seems like the eventual resultant of the Oligarchs being kicked out of the Matrix anyway)
d) Machines kidnapping BIP and using it to do the whole golden hallways reset thing which somehow magically kills oligarchs/blocks them from the Matrix (my least favorite option, since, if you look at it, contains no real further explanation as to why or how the BIP accomplishes this, since it's just code as much as anything else, and that a server reset wouldn't seem to do much...)

I'm sure there are other options to remove the Oligarchs, they just need thought. But again, I don't think removing them is entirely necessary. Just strip them of their power or kick them out of the Matrix and you're essentially golden - not killing off characters in a villain of the week type of action and retaining individuals who could be used to further plot either immediately or soon thereafter.

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03-03-2010, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2010 06:47 AM by Noxton.)
Post: #102
RE: Possible Story Ideas
Both Neoteny and Barloke make great points. Taking the line from Barloke, my other question is, if the Oligarchs were always this close and this power hungry, why didn't the Machines deal with them as a threat long ago, perhaps when Zion and the Machines were in Truce-time?

Hell, it would be a fantastic way for the Machines to thin Zion's numbers without even doing any of the work. We all know they didn't give a damn about the truce from the beginning since they dropped it so easily. In fact, during the Truce it would have shown Zion just how much the Machines had held over their heads, how much they didn't know and how much the Machines had mastered this planet.

Now I realize this idea was created AFTER the fact, but what I'm saying is... it's a thin storyline, and it is very "villain of the week" as Neoteny said. Also, if the Machines would lie to the Oligarchs about how they handled the processes of the Matrix (lied / withheld, same thing), then why wouldn't they spend their time protecting themselves against the Oligarchs, who surely would want to get in on the action if they found out they were lied to.

After all, why hide something unless it's worth hiding? If knowing the Oligarchs would come into the system once they learned about the power bestowed upon these humans, about the ability to drop programs into human bodies, about all of this... Why not find a way to keep them out or even better, rid themselves of the potential nuisance and nuke the Oligarchs altogether?
(03-03-2010 06:42 AM)Neoteny Wrote:  a) Merovingian/Machine collaboration (including research of Beirn's cheat code powers in conjunciton with Cryptos's code which could lead to pushing the Oligarchs out)
b) Machines harnessing some of Sati's programming in conjunction with the programs they have to push the Oligarchs out/render them powerless.
c) Machine/Oligarch war (which seems like the eventual resultant of the Oligarchs being kicked out of the Matrix anyway)
d) Machines kidnapping BIP and using it to do the whole golden hallways reset thing which somehow magically kills oligarchs/blocks them from the Matrix (my least favorite option, since, if you look at it, contains no real further explanation as to why or how the BIP accomplishes this, since it's just code as much as anything else, and that a server reset wouldn't seem to do much...)

I'm sure there are other options to remove the Oligarchs, they just need thought. But again, I don't think removing them is entirely necessary. Just strip them of their power or kick them out of the Matrix and you're essentially golden - not killing off characters in a villain of the week type of action and retaining individuals who could be used to further plot either immediately or soon thereafter.

In fact, it would be interesting if we could somewhere down the road make them into a Merovingian sub-org and bring some balance to the Merovingian Org. I mean, we have more LE characters than anyone by a long shot.

Maybe we could find a way to make some RSI's look like the Wright-Accelerated Exiles under someone like Flood (to fulfill his sub-plot), and then even have some player-characters either make wireframed RSI's or something.

That would need some SERIOUS fleshing out, but it could give the Merv something to do besides the Emo Persephone stuff that was going on at the end there.

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03-03-2010, 07:15 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2010 07:29 AM by cloudwolf.)
Post: #103
RE: Possible Story Ideas
Well the Trinity Killcode that EPN/Cyph have serves a pretty good purpose in denying The Oligarch's Matrix access. Then you can take the fight to them in Real/use them as arbortory characters if you really wanted.

Not a fan of them just becoming another General for the Merv tho.

The thing to remember is the Machines couldn't (or at the very least didn't want to) destroy The Oligarchs in the real. This shit is a deeply seeded centuries long relationship. I think saying "The machines go lolpwn them" or "The machines just write them out of teh matricks" is taking too much of a 2 dimensional stance on the mindset of the Machine. Rare touched on some fairly enlightening ideas as to the Machine physche (both in their rationale in preserving humanity and in their uneasy relationship with the Oligarchs). They're not just cold blooded killers/rulers of the universe that want to kill everything that moves. They ended the Truce because they thought Zion was going to build up an offensive under the radar. They felt threatened.

Whatever happens, IF the Oligarchs are going to be removed in part by The Machines, those control rountines need to be removed somehow. Not just with some anti-override codes written by an overwritten lackey to do with Matrix related powers. These are at the very basis of the Machine's evolution since establishing 01. They're WHY the Machines can't take on The Oligarchs (whether they have the means to or not).

And without the Machines fighting somewhere along the way I can hardly see humanity standing up the Oligarchs, look what happens to EPN trying to take on a single kingdom state.

---

Edit: As for The Machines creating the BIP proving superiority, it was the culmination of centuries of research into the human genome and mapping it to machine code. The Oligarchs were too busy in-fighting to take such an undertaking. Not to mention they simply wouldnt've had the sample size or motivation to co-operate (as evidenced by the squabbling to get the BIP in the first place). If they weren't insane and wanted to at the time, yeah, they probably could've made the BIP collaborating the Machines. But it didn't happen. Doesn't mean they're inferior, technologically.

Besides, as I mention above, it doesn't matter who was stronger militarily/technologically (pretty sure we can all agree The Machines), it's the fact the reprogramming makes it impossible for them to raise a finger to them. Counciously or otherwise.

Edit2: Also, it was never Rare's intention to straight out kill them all. The killcode and/or reset was only designed to severely weaken them/kill those already transferred to human bodies who were connected to The Matrix at the time/enable the Machines to revolt. There were always going to be remnants left (to be cleaned up or used down the line I suppose).

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03-03-2010, 08:12 AM
Post: #104
RE: Possible Story Ideas
I think the thing that has me a little off kilter is the fact that they are at least a hundred of these crazy assholes in the Real and all up to no good. If what everyone has speculated as true (and i see no reason why it isn't) then these Oligarths are some bad ass juju men to the point where the Machines would hesitate to take them out. I agree with Neo on this that to just wipe them out is a real waste. Something like this incorprated into the Matrix as more fleshed out and pronounced could be an interesting angle. The only thing in my humble opinion I would like to see cleared up is that not all of these Oligarths are insane. I'm sorry but the idea that there are a hundred of these lunatics that had some divine plan hundreds of years ago and still have some agenda doesn't add up to me. The other thing is saying they have some sort of kingdom or kingdoms. Again I guess its just the mental image of a hundred or more Zero-1 or Zion like cities out there in the Real seems crazy in itself. For me there is no way they could have that without some redpill finding this out before hand. I mean come on, Zion operatives (and most likely Merv and Cyph) have been roving through the Real in hovercraft and i seriously doubt they all hung out close to Zion or Machine City. All that time and someone was bound to bump into tone of those "kingdoms". If i may be so bold i would suggest that instead of making it seem that they had some kingdom or area of control they would have some sort of chamber for their upkeep (I guess androids have to go for oil changes every once and a while).

There i could see them not being discovered at all by any operative. Another thing that I think would work is not all of the hundred are even concious. Perhaps they are in some hybernation state and the ones that we are dealing with now are the ones that have woken up. It would account for the reasons the Machines never dealt with the Oligarths as a threat before.

Getting back to fleshing them out. If there was a way for them to be there own organization and not a sub-org i think that would work even better because it's obvious they do have a singular agenda from Zion/Mech/or Merv. It would be interesting to see what the Oligarths could offer a potential operative to get them to work for them.

I'm thinking in that way we don't have to kill off Trinity for such dubious reasons (and one that i think is a little difficult to understand). Anyway just my two cents on this so far.

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03-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Post: #105
RE: Possible Story Ideas
As I mentioned before, the Machines are in an interesting new situation where they are working very closely with human operatives who would have the freedom to analyze and eliminate any supposed control routines in their programs which would keep them from initiating hostilities with the Oligarchs. This is something they didn't previously have available to them, and due to the nature of the relationship, they never "wanted" to bring it up, but since it's out there, and since the Oligarchs are, to some extent, overstepping their boundaries, I don't see it as out of character for the Machines to go that route or, at the very least, to outfit the hovercraft of their operatives to be strong enough to combat the Oligarchs and have them fight the fight for them.

I'm hesitant to go any direction where the Oligarchs are 100% blocked from the Matrix, though. Mostly because this is the only way we have to see them and really interract with them. I think we could really do a lot more with them if we had a way to strip down their power, but leave them alive - then we have much more mortal Oligarchs scouring the Matrix trying to regain their power. It gives them a goal, a reason to be there, and makes them visible to the players.

Rare stated in his notes that the machines are "frustrated" with the Oligarchs and the lopsided relationship they have shared with them, especially at this point where they seem to be overstepping boundaries and making themselves aware to redpills. I don't think it's too far of a stretch for the Machines to finally say enough's enough and get that reprogramming from their operatives.

I just don't see any believable rationale for the BIP to use itself to weaken/destroy/remove the Oligarchs. It'd be convenient if it did, but I don't see the rationale. That's not to say that we couldn't do something with the Oligarchs to provoke the BIP, such as have them demand, and retrieve the programming of the One from the Machines and begin abusing it.

The other thing I can think of that would make the Oligarchs "go away," but still remain a possibility would be if they were to get their hands on the BIP. At this point, the BIP isn't really all that important a tool to us in writing the story, and if the Oligarchs get it, they seem likeliest to go their own way and get out of the Matrix and the non-zoned parts of the Real, effectively writing them out and writing out the BIP. That may even be the simplest solution out there.

---

Oh, and Barloke, they had their own area of the surface designated as a No-Fly Zone where they had their kingdoms. I think it's presumed that heavy countermeasures were employed against anything that really stepped across that line, blasting it out of existence before it could realize anything, which kind of explains how they weren't stumbled upon before.

I don't know how extensive the term "kingdoms" is, though. I always envisioned it as each with their own plot of land to build sand castles on.

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03-03-2010, 09:53 AM
Post: #106
RE: Possible Story Ideas
(03-03-2010 09:30 AM)Neoteny Wrote:  The other thing I can think of that would make the Oligarchs "go away," but still remain a possibility would be if they were to get their hands on the BIP. At this point, the BIP isn't really all that important a tool to us in writing the story, and if the Oligarchs get it, they seem likeliest to go their own way and get out of the Matrix and the non-zoned parts of the Real, effectively writing them out and writing out the BIP. That may even be the simplest solution out there.

Well that was meant to happen next subchapter. It was going to end with Tesarova tricking The Merovingian into helping her get ahold of the BIP while Helian played the Machines to the same goal. Basically, they pretended to be in competition then screwed over both parties, leaving with the BIP.

If I remember correctly there was a filler subchapter that followed (something akin to the filler following the shortcut Unlimit storyline) and it was upon their return in actual human bodies that trouble really started up again. This is when the Trinity Killcode came into play (The Oracle had to wait until the Oligarchs were using the program for the killcode to work) to kill Helian/Tesarova. It was in response to this minor victory that the main Oligarch force invaded The Matrix for the final events.

So we could extend that filler out, or increase the significane of the killcode event or whatever.

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03-03-2010, 01:18 PM
Post: #107
RE: Possible Story Ideas
Ok, after reading Rarebit's note I can see why putting Trinity in The Source to reboot The Matrix wouldn't make sense. She is a machine creation and would have no bearing on Oligarches hacks when it comes to entering and exiting The Matrix.

The only problem I see with playing things out like Rare wanted to is that the ending of having Two Matrixs just doesn't fit. I know this story was shot down by the Bros. but since it was already mentioned, the 5 million pod born humans are barely providing enough power for the machines, and that's just with one Matrix. How are they going to power two?

As far as having humans operative get rid of the code in the machine mainframe that is basically the three laws of Robotics, the main problem I see with that is that it will turn them into blood thirsty killers. That coding is what preserved Zion and the pod born humans, the machine are still being a servant to mankind because of that code. If you get rid of it, what's to stop them from flushing all the humans into the sewers and killing off every last redpill? Story wise, they need that coding.

However, I do like Neo's idea of simply giving them the BIP and they go on their merry way. We're not killing them off, and we're ending a story that has a deeper level than the Villain of the Week storyline, all the while keeping the door open for them to return.

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03-03-2010, 03:37 PM
Post: #108
RE: Possible Story Ideas
(03-03-2010 09:53 AM)cloudwolf Wrote:  
(03-03-2010 09:30 AM)Neoteny Wrote:  The other thing I can think of that would make the Oligarchs "go away," but still remain a possibility would be if they were to get their hands on the BIP. At this point, the BIP isn't really all that important a tool to us in writing the story, and if the Oligarchs get it, they seem likeliest to go their own way and get out of the Matrix and the non-zoned parts of the Real, effectively writing them out and writing out the BIP. That may even be the simplest solution out there.

Well that was meant to happen next subchapter. It was going to end with Tesarova tricking The Merovingian into helping her get ahold of the BIP while Helian played the Machines to the same goal. Basically, they pretended to be in competition then screwed over both parties, leaving with the BIP.

If I remember correctly there was a filler subchapter that followed (something akin to the filler following the shortcut Unlimit storyline) and it was upon their return in actual human bodies that trouble really started up again. This is when the Trinity Killcode came into play (The Oracle had to wait until the Oligarchs were using the program for the killcode to work) to kill Helian/Tesarova. It was in response to this minor victory that the main Oligarch force invaded The Matrix for the final events.

So we could extend that filler out, or increase the significane of the killcode event or whatever.

Why not just axe the whole killcode thing and let them leave all hippy-skippy? It ties up some loose ends fairly well, leaves them with room to return, and takes the BIP out of our hair until we're ready to reintroduce it - if we're ever ready to reintroduce it - if we ever need to introduce it.

At this point, I suppose I should mention that I'm far from a proponent of following Rarebit's notes to the letter. They're simply notes on what could have been. The two matrices, golden hallways thing... I hated that. It was pure fanservice aimed at getting us back to ground zero (i.e. the truce) which isn't the best ground to be on. Given the opportunity to have things unfold and be more interesting, I say we take that opportunity rather than pay homage to some notes.

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03-03-2010, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2010 10:01 PM by cloudwolf.)
Post: #109
RE: Possible Story Ideas
(03-03-2010 01:18 PM)Metalogic Wrote:  As far as having humans operative get rid of the code in the machine mainframe that is basically the three laws of Robotics, the main problem I see with that is that it will turn them into blood thirsty killers. That coding is what preserved Zion and the pod born humans, the machine are still being a servant to mankind because of that code. If you get rid of it, what's to stop them from flushing all the humans into the sewers and killing off every last redpill? Story wise, they need that coding.

The code that had them preserve humanity was their own, from being designed as caretakers, not the oligarch control code.

And the two matrices thing was just a quick scribbling, I wouldn't look too much into it (though I always liked the idea, I don't think it would work in the setting of the emu).

As for just letting The Oligarchs run off with the BIP don't you think Ghost/Zion/EPN would want to do something to try and get Trinity back? That was the whole motivation of that side for the latter half of this storyline, saving and helping Trinity.
(03-03-2010 03:37 PM)Neoteny Wrote:  Why not just axe the whole killcode thing and let them leave all hippy-skippy?

Becuase it would leave a gaping plot hole in the form of the program The Oracle gave to EPN/Cyph? The big hint that she was making a killcode that got all the machine operatives up in a twist? The westview conspiracy sideplot to do with her faking her own death to have things play out the way she wanted them to?

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03-04-2010, 12:06 AM
Post: #110
RE: Possible Story Ideas
(03-03-2010 09:58 PM)cloudwolf Wrote:  As for just letting The Oligarchs run off with the BIP don't you think Ghost/Zion/EPN would want to do something to try and get Trinity back? That was the whole motivation of that side for the latter half of this storyline, saving and helping Trinity.

Well let's look at that, I think it could actually provide some good RP for Zion, the Oligarch leaves and then the War restarts, however Ghost & EPN aren't willing to let the whole thing go, so while Ghost may help Zion with the war in some instances, in other instances he goes out trying to retrieve the BIP. EPN can do the same thing. Machine and Cyph can get in on the action to, trying to prevent Ghost and EPN from bringing The Oligarches back into the picture.

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